A podcast debrief
In the debut episode of the Talk Flying podcast, Master Instructor Michael Church (50+ years instructing) and Alaska Airlines Captain Ty Frisbee have a candid, slightly uncomfortable conversation about the state of pilot training.
If you have ever felt that modern training is more about box‑ticking than learning how not to die, this 40‑minute episode will feel uncomfortably familiar. This debrief pulls out the most useful ideas for general aviation pilots and instructors.
The core argument - excellence vs avoidance
Church argues that general aviation training has drifted from pursuing excellence to avoiding risk. The FAA's Airman Certification Standards (ACS) and many modern schools now emphasise staying away from the edges of the envelope instead of teaching pilots to handle full stalls, spins, steep banks, and high angles of attack.
His analogy is sharp:
Modern training says: "There's a dragon in that cave. Stay out."
Good training shows you the "dragon" is really a gecko - and teaches you how to play with it safely.
For GA pilots, that shift matters. You can pass a checkride while never really understanding what happens when the aircraft is truly upset, slow, or mis‑coordinated.
The airline prep fallacy
Frisbee, speaking as a current airline captain, calls out a mismatch between airline branding and airline reality in ab initio training.
Many schools sell "airline‑style training" in single‑engine Cessnas, with stabilized 3° glidepaths, early configuration, and heavy reliance on automation. That works in a multi‑engine jet. In a single‑engine piston, a shallow, draggy, low‑energy final is a bad place to be if the engine quits.
Frisbee's other key point: airlines do not actually want 250‑hour "system managers". They want pilots with zeal and stick‑and‑rudder feel. Airlines are having to re‑teach basic stall recognition and recovery because many new hires were trained to avoid stalls entirely, not to understand and handle them.
For GA students who dream of the airlines, the message is simple: solid basic flying skills beat pretending your 172 is a mini‑Airbus.
Three ideas GA pilots should steal
The conversation boils down to three practical shifts for anyone training or teaching in light aircraft.
Solo still matters
In some structured programs, solo time is being squeezed to the legal minimum. Church and Frisbee argue that solo is not just extra practice. It is where a pilot develops command authority, self‑trust, and decision‑making without an instructor's safety net.
If you are a student, protect your solo time. If you are an instructor, fight to keep meaningful, thoughtful solo in your syllabus.
Teach with questions, not commands
Church's "silent critique" is a simple instructor habit that builds awareness instead of dependency.
Instead of saying "add right rudder", ask:
- "Are the wings level?"
- "Where is the ball?"
- "What do you notice about the nose?"
The goal is to force the student to look outside, notice the error, and connect cause and effect. On downwind or final, students can use the same questions as quiet self‑coaching.
Go beyond 1G
Both guests argue that real safety lives beyond the ACS minimums. They push strongly for time in gliders, taildraggers, and basic aerobatics or upset recovery.
This is not about becoming an airshow pilot. It is about learning how the aircraft behaves when it is slow, cross‑controlled, nose‑high or nose‑low, or banked steeply and unloaded. Once you have felt those regimes with a competent instructor, they stop being dragons.